After the collapse of the western Roman Empire in the 400s, most of the conquered European peoples retained the version of the Middle Eastern religion, Christianity, that the Romans had imposed upon them. They called it Roman Catholicism. Following the Renaissance and with the printing press making religious books more accessible, a questioning and protest of this 1500 year old version of the religion began throughout parts of Western Europe. This protest is known as the Protestant Reformation.
We have read about reformers like Martin Luther & John Calvin who challenged the Roman Catholic version of Christianity. Look over your readings and answer the following question in the "comments" section. As is our practice, reply to two of your classmates with a statement or a clarifying question.
Does Martin Luther or John Calvin have a more significant impact?
- Use Key terms from our readings to both briefly describe and then defend your response.
- All responses are valid as long as we support our response with evidence from the readings.
- Look back at our "Rules" for answering questions completely from our classwork on 9/21.
Martin Luther had the most significant impact because he was the one who started the Protestant Reformation in 1517 when he challenged some of the practices and beliefs of the Roman Catholic Church. This resulted in a schism, separation within the Catholic faith in Europe. This schism was what inspired others to do the same, John Calvin being one of them. So, with out Luther’s activism, John most likely would have not began his challenges towards the Catholic Church.
ReplyDeleteI completely agree that Martin Luther had a more consequential effect on the protestant revolution than John Calvin, since he was the one who started the movement, and created it.
DeleteI definitely agree with the idea that without Luther's work, others would not have been able to do the same.
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DeleteYour statement that John Calvin's theological beliefs could not have risen to prominence without the theological beliefs of Martin Luther, is one I strongly resonate with. I greatly appreciate the way you managed to keep your argument concise and well-flowing.
DeleteI agree. Without Martin Luther's radical new ideas, and the Protestant Reformation, John Calvin might not have been able to build off Martin Luther's ideas. Martin Luther created something new, while Calvin built off something that was already there.
DeleteEthan Lader
DeleteI think that Martin Luther had a more significant impact than John Calvin. Martin Luther was the person who started the whole Protestant Revolution, while John Calvin was just another branch of it. Both have their own branches of Protestantism, but Calvin was only able to create his branch as a result of Martin Luther's actions. Even though John Calvin did invent the concept of predestination, I do not think that this accomplishment is more significant than the accomplishment of creating the schism that would eventually lead to multiple wars and the colonization of a whole continent.
ReplyDeleteI agree that Martin Luther had a larger and significant effect than John Calvin, since it was Martin Luther that sparked the protestant revolution. He also is responsible for much of the formation of the protestant church.
DeleteI agree, once again, because although Calvin was the one that really pushed the schism to be as wide as it is today, it barters the question if he would have ever done such a thing without Luther.
DeleteI am interested to know what you personally think the effect of predestination was? It is very interesting to compare different ideas.
DeleteI agree because although John Calvin helped it spread and become big, he has Martin Luther to thank for starting it.
DeleteThe impact that Martin Luther had on the Catholic Church, by challenging its it as the sole living authority of christianity. The schism that followed made many wonder if Martin Luther was on to something in his challenging of the Catholic Church, leading many to explore the possibilities of becoming protestant.
ReplyDeleteEthan Lader
DeleteAlthough I am loathe to not provide a controversial opinion for the sake of discussion, I agree with everyone who was commented so far; Martin Luther had the bigger impact because he was the one who opened the doors for the Protestant Reformation. John Calvin had a profound impact, but Martin Luther set off the avalanche, and without Martin Luther's challenge of the Roman Catholic Church, who knows if John Calvin would have ever come to the same conclusions about faith? And even if he did, I find it unlikely that it would have been as well received if people had not first come to accept Martin Luther's ideas.
ReplyDeleteI agree with this statement. Similarly, I also wrote in my response that Luther was the whole reason Calvin was able to do what he did. But I also like how you included the fact that Calvin still COULD have separated from the Roman Cathotic church, but that would have been very unlikely.
DeleteI actually think there was a chance that if Martin Luther didn't do what he did, another would because the church of Rome wasn't the most fair, so im sure that someone might have rose up, even if it wasn't John Calvin.
DeleteI agree. One of the main points of the argument is that without Martin Luther, John Calvin would not have the impact that he had. I really like how you fleshed out that argument.
DeleteI also agree with you. Martin Luther gained a group of followers after he challenged the Roman Catholic Church and John Calvin was kind of following Luther's path.
DeleteI think that it was a domino effect. Once Martin Luther had the courage to challenge the Catholic church, others were able to share their beliefs as well.
DeleteAgreed. Although they both had significant impacts on the Protestant Reformation, it can be argued that Martin Luther was the "founder" of the whole reform, and that if Luther had not challenged the Roman Catholic Church, then would people such as John Calvin have also stepped forward? I liked how your answer brought to the table "what-ifs" when making the statement of which of the two had a greater impact.
DeleteI agree with this. Luther paved a revolutionary road, and Calvin had followed this road. Luther was a direct inspiration for Calvin's success.
DeleteI do think that Marten Luther had a bigger impact on the Prodestant church because he started it. Jhon Calvin did achieve a lot in his lifetime, but the thing is that he wouldn't have been able to accomplish anything if Marten Luther had not put down the roadwork for the new sect of Christianity. Both men were very infulential, but I feel like Calvin was following in Luther's footprints (yes he did do things Luther never accomplished) but Luther was the beginning of the Prodestant church, and so I think just because of that he did more than Calvin could have ever hoped to do. (Don't get me wrong, Calvin did a lot, maybe even more than Luther, but he wouldn't have had anything TO do it it hadn't been for Luther.)
ReplyDeleteI agree with this. Luther started the Protestant Reformation and he inspired John Calvin's beliefs.
DeleteI agree, I think that without Martin Luther paving the way, John Calvin might not have achieved the things he did.
Delete(Sakari Jackson)
DeleteI agree with this (lol I think almost all of us do but, I digress) because though John did equally as much, or even more than, Martin, Martin had to go through the leg work and foundations for reform. He had to prove that Catholicism isn't the only form of Christianity that will ever exist and work and you won't go to hell just for saying things should be a little different.
I agree as well. Luther influenced Calvin's actions. Without Luther, Calvin would not have been even half as significant.
DeleteLike many others said, I believe that Martin Luther had a greater affect that John Calvin for a couple reasons. One such reason is that he founded the religion, so he started it and without him, there might not have been a schism at all. Another reason is that text said that, "Next to Martin Luther, John Calvin was the most important figure of the European Reformation." The text says that Martin Luther was more important that John Calvin.
ReplyDeleteI think that Martin Luther had a bigger impact than John Calvin because Luther started the Prostetant Reformation in 1517. Martin Luther was the first to openly challenge the Roman Catholic Church, he was the one who started the schism within European Christianity. John Calvin was French and he was inspired by Luther's ideas, so he introduced the doctrine of predestination. I think that both Luther and Calvin had huge impacts but Luther had a bigger impact of Christianity.
ReplyDeleteI agree! Without the Protestant Reformation, John Calvin might not have gained a following, or even started Calvinism.
DeleteI think that Martin Luther had the greatest impact, because he was the first one to challenge the Catholic church. He shared the idea that salvation came from faith and devotion alone. He gained a huge following, and turned many people away from traditional Catholicism. His retaliation against the church was so impactful and large that he was excluded by the pope. The schism that he created in European Christianity paved the way for others, such as John Calvin, to reform the religion.
ReplyDeleteI agree. Martin Luther started the whole Protestant Revolution, so he is obviously more important than John Calvin.
DeleteAs opposed to what everyone else has said, John Calvin was more influential than Martin Luther. Although Luther was the one who started the Protestant Reformation, John Calvin took those ideas and added more to it, including the idea of predestination, which, "spread rapidly throughout northern Europe..." This also led to the Puritans in England. Without John Calvin, Martin Luther's foundation of ideas could have been lost to time, with no one to support it and add on as times changed.
ReplyDeleteI politely disagree with you. There were influences of the Protestant Reformation without John Calvin. This can be seen by the fact that the Calvinist Puritans wanted to amend the Church of England, not the Catholic Church.
DeleteI agree. It's not enough to have one voice calling out. A movement requires multiple people with varying ideas who build and add to each other's ideas. While I personally think that between the two Martin Luther had the biggest impact, it could be argued that John Calvin was more important to the Protestant Reformation overall.
DeleteExactly. Calvin's addition of predestination was also a lot more impactful for many Protestants, as Luther's main demands were focused on the organization of the Catholic Church more than its followers, while Calvin turned the very purpose of following Christian morals on its head via predestination, which proved vastly more motivational.
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ReplyDeleteMartin Luther had a more significant impact than John Calvin. It was, after all, Martin Luther who saw the Catholic Church's power as illegitimate and decided to act. He was the one who finally caused the schism by having his supporters leave the Catholic Church after he was excommunicated. John Calvin's colonization-incentivizing idea of predestination, on the other hand, could not have taken off without the lifting of the Catholic Church's power in England in the English Reformation (an offshoot of the Protestant Reformation). Therefore, John Calvin's influence is only a part of the greater influences of Martin Luther.
ReplyDeleteI agree with this, because as stated earlier in the textbook, Martin Luther was the one who had led the charge for Reformation, and set the basis for other people such as John Calvin to be able to also influence the Reformation. If Martin Luther had not done what he did earlier, then we would not know if people such as John Calvin would have introduced the idea of "predestination" or not.
DeleteI believe that Martin Luther had done the greater influence on the Protestant Reformation than John Calvin, even though they both had significant impact. Martin Luther was an Augustinian monk and ordained priest, and kicked off the Protestant Reformation in 1517. John Calvin was a French theologian who was (after Luther) the most influential reformer, and introduced the idea of "predestination." Even though John Calvin had done that, it was really Martin Luther who had started the whole idea of rejecting the Roman Catholic church, and set the stage for others such as John Calvin to also reject such ideals. As it says in the textbook, after the pope had excommunicated Martin Luther in 1520, Luther led his followers out of the church, and "created a schism in European Christianity that never healed. Therefore, even though both of these people were incredibly influential at the time, Martin Luther was really the person who led the whole Reformation at the beginning, which is why he had a greater impact.
ReplyDeleteI agree because, while John Calvin may have been a large part of the separation from the catholic church, it was really Martin Luther who started it.
DeleteI can absolutely see the legitimacy of this, as Luther did start the reformation. However I do disagree, mainly because of how influential predestination was to the average person, and how much Calvin did himself. Calvin didn't take a group of people already interested in his ideas and create a schism when excommunicated, but went into a set of unconverted peoples and converted them to an unfamiliar, even heretical, sect.
Delete(Sakari Jackson)
ReplyDeleteI would make the argument that Martin Luther had the more significant impact on Catholic England. To start with, he was the first person to successfully go against the Catholic Church, and even thought he was excommunicated, he gained a significant following and was never the same. Though John Calvin was more extreme and also caused changes in the Christian faith, he just followed in Martin's footsteps.
I agree, I think it makes such a strong point that you highlighted the fact that even though Martin Luther was excommunicated, he was able to start a whole new religion. John Calvin did not have this struggle as the religion he added to was already created and established.
DeleteIt seems a bit harsh to say that he was only following Martin's footsteps, since John Calvin was the author of his own ideas and beliefs. Both Martin Luther and John Calvin were pioneers of Christian faith outside of the Roman Catholic Church, and while extreme and certainly not the first challenger of the Catholic beliefs, Calvin was largely successful and his religion spread rapidly. All the same, I agree that Martin Luther had more an impact given that he lay out the ground work for Calvin. Without Luther there likely would have been no Calvin.
DeleteI agree with this. John Calvin was only able to make change and become influential because of Martin Luther. In a way, all of the changes John Calvin made could be counted as Martin Luthers impact.
DeleteCalvin's works were based on the successes of Luther's revolution. If not for Luther, Calvin wouldn't have been able to do what he did.
DeleteI think Martin Luther had a greater impact then John Calvin because he had a long lasting effect. While Calvin was influential Martin Luther had started this movement. Luther had caused a schism within the European Christianity and it was one that was never healed because he started reform.
ReplyDeleteI agree with you!! because if it weren't for Martin Luther then I believe John Calvin wouldn't have done anything.
DeleteI agree because John Calvin would never have been a large part of the reformation without the influence of Martin Luther
DeleteI believe that Martin Luther provided the larger impact between him and John Calvin that is because he started a strong schism against Christians in Europe whilst trying to recruit many more into the belief systems provided by the Roman Catholic Church and as well created the concept of "predestination" which managed to influence a group of people in Europe whilst John Calvin was just attempting to get rid of this, John calvin was influenced by Martin Luther to do his actions. Therefore, Martin Luther has greater influence.
ReplyDeleteI agree, what John Calvin did was simply stemmed from what Martin Luther started.
DeleteI think that Martin Luther had a greater affect on the protestant church because he himself founded it. Although John Calvin did have a major impact with his views, he was only able to accomplish this because of Martin Luther's achievements. We don't know if there would have even been an official new branch of Christianity if Martin Luther wasn't there, would John Calvin have paved the way the same? We truly don't know, but seeing that Martin Luther did in fact do this, that he founded the religion, he had the greater impact.
ReplyDeleteExactly. Calvin only finished what Martin Luther started.
DeleteI think that Martin Luther provided the larger impact because he created a schism to cut off ties with the Catholic church. He did this through persuading his supporters to leave the Catholic church. Alongside this huge feat, he also introduced very important and revolutionary concepts and ideas. John Calvin, although still being very important, took influence from Luther's actions. Therefore, Martin Luther had a bigger impact than Calvin.
ReplyDeleteI agree with this statement because without MartinLuther, John Calvin would not be studied, we would not know his name.
DeleteI think that Martin Luther had a larger impact. John Calvin was more radical than Martin Luther, but Martin Luther was much more popular, and was the reason the protestant reformation happened. John Calvin would never have become popularized without Martin Luther.
ReplyDeleteMartin Luther had a larger impact. He was the one that started to question and challenge the practices and beliefs of the Roman Catholic Church. He got expelled from the Church but this allowed the Protestant Reformation to begin. John Calvin was the one to help spread it but without Martin Luther "it" would not even exist.
ReplyDeleteI agree. John Calvin most likely never would have achieved what he did without Martin Luther.
DeleteI also agree with this. Martin Luther took a big step with challenging the Church, which had remained the main religious power in Europe for a long time.
DeleteI agree I don't believe that Calvin would have taken such a big step, if Luther did not do it before him, Luther after all was the originator of the protestant Revolution, he was the one who really made people stop and rethink society as a whole.
DeleteMartin Luther had a more significant impact than John Calvin, as Luther was the one who first challenged Catholicism by creating a schism. John Calvin, while still incredibly influential, most likely wouldn't have been able to gain a following without Martin Luther. Luther's 95 theses paved the way for Calvinism, and other Christian sects, to gain popularity. Both Luther and Calvin were important figures, but Martin Luther is more significant because he started the Protestant Reformation.
ReplyDeleteI think that Martin Luther had a bigger impact on religion than John Calvin because Luther was the one who started the whole rebellion on Catholicism. It's true that Calvin separated from the Catholic church but Martin Luther is the one who started this whole idea about the religious rebellion.
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ReplyDeleteI think that Martin Luther had a more significant impact than John Calvin. Martin Luther was the person who started the Protestant Revolution. He began everything when he challenged the practices and beliefs of the Roman Catholic Church. This resulted in a separation within the Catholic faith. This was what inspired others to do the same. Essentially, Calvin followed Luther's footsteps. Without Luther’s radical new ideas, John most likely would have not began his challenges towards the Catholic Church.
ReplyDeleteMartin Luther was more influential than John Calvin. He created a schism in Christianity that lasted a long time. He also influenced John Calvin. Calvin had very extreme ideas, like predestination, so they didn't become as widespread and influential.
ReplyDeleteThough Martin Luther may have began the Protestant Reformation, and it could be argued that Calvin would not do what he did if not for Luther, I think for the amount they actually accomplished Calvin had a greater impact. Luther made important, but in some ways smaller changes, only wanting to reform his church rather than replace it in the beginning. Calvin on the other hand created the radically new concept of predestination(at least in the Christian world), which created a great motivation/anxiety in his followers to find their place in the world, and real change in the everyday lives and worship of thousands, rather than the somewhat more bureaucratic changes to church finance and clerical responsibility Luther created. Calvin also was in a different geographic region, which though seemingly unimportant, meant he converted much of his people in a separate wave of reformation, not just adding on to the beliefs of existing Protestants, leading me to believe that given a world without Martin Luther, John Calvin would likely take his place.
ReplyDeleteThis point definitely changed my way of thinking , I didn't even think of their location nor the broader spectrum.
DeleteMartin Luther had the more significant impact of the two, He after all was the one who started the whole protestant revolution, and although he was excommunicated by the pope many of his followers stayed by his side and created a schism one that was so great the Europe could not recover from. This is what opened the gate for other branches of religion some that outright reject aspects of Catholicism like puritans although puritans without Luther I doubt John Calvin would have had the courage to challenge catholicism.
ReplyDeleteMartin Luther had a more significant impact that John Calvert because John Calvin would not have accomplished what he did without the work of Martin Luther first. Martin Luther began the protestant revolution, while Calvin helped spread it.
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